Like last time, I’ll be liveblogging. Unlike last time, the signal is intermittent, but I’ll be doing my best.
Also, unlike last time, I don’t think I did a particularly good job.
The introduction is coming from Mark DeYmaz of Mosaic Church, who’s telling a story about Jerry Falwell and Senator Edward Kennedy.
Mayo Johnson, tonight’s moderator, is recognizing the members of the diversity commission (RCDC) and of the Nehemiah Group. He notes this is the fiftieth anniversary of the Central High crisis, and hopes that we can use the skills developed in cultural understanding and conflict resolution can be of use to us today.
He is now introducing our panelists. From right to left (I’ll post a picture or two later):
Rev. Rickey Hicks, Rufus K. Young AME Church.
Imam Johnny Hasan, The Islamic Center for Human Excellence.
Dr. Harry Li, Mosaic Church of Central Arkansas.
Rabbi Gene Levy, B’nai Israel.
Rev. Hicks is leading off. Faith is a very broad subject and a very general subject, but also a very specific subject. You cannot talk about faith without talking about what one has faith in–something bigger, stronger, more profound than oneself. We bring our life experiences to our interpretation of the supernatural.
Faith is also our manifestation, our behavior, our words that we express in our time so most incredible adversity.When you want to cry, can you smile? When you want to be angry, does faith call you to be calm? But, our experiences: What did grandmama say? What did the people across the street say? What theology did our churches teach us?
He asks his bible study classes, “If you were born in India, would you be a Hindu? Would you be a Buddhist?” The question answers itself–of course you would.
He continues with a story told him by a man who led people on safari about a fire on the savannah, where on a mount not burned, animals normally in a predator-prey relationship became common seekers for safety and peace, and draws a parallel to people of different faiths.
Next, Imam Johnny Hasan, who begins with a variety of wishes for peace from various religions. He finds three sources of wisdom: (I believe he said) Allah, the Koran, and the intellect. God trusts man and believes in man, his agent on this earth. Critical thinking includes the understanding that we are to care about our world–faith without works is not accepted in Islam. Faith is also the state of happiness, which is produced by practice. Again, here is where our capability of critical thought comes into play. “Live as though you will die tomorrow; plan as though you will live forever.” It is wrong to waste time.
Now, Dr. Harry Li (who helped me get on the net–thanks!), who notes that getting his Ph.D. in electrical engineering was much less difficult than working together with all the various cultures (there are over thirty flags hanging around the sanctuary) and the diversity of opinion represented in the Mosaic Church. (That sounds very negative–it’s my phrasing, and not the tone of what Dr. Li said.)
He is largely echoing what Rickey Hicks said about faith, as well as touching on Imam Hasan’s thoughts on critical thinking. Also, faith gives him two sorts of perspective, length and breadth. He sees some things as though from a height–for instance, regardless of ideology, are we on the same team, do we have the same goals and, if so, how do we work together? But also, some things have length, especially over time: What are you here for, what are you here to do, does it extend beyond yourself and your time? What is the big picture, the long-term effect? Often his task is to get those who are diametrically opposed to compromise and come together, to move toward each other.
“So far as it depends upon you, be at peace with all men.” I can be at peace with the men sitting next to me (on this panel) and, even though we have fundamental differences, I can show them respect without violating my own conscience. I can have a polite conversation without denigrating their beliefs; I can respect them as men of compassion; even to the point where our adrenaline pumps and our passion is engaged, and at the end of it I can buy them a cup of coffee and ask about their families. We can work through differences in a way that does not lead to conflicts. Sometimes in the heat of the moment, our cultural upbringing may cause us to respond in a knee-jerk fashion; we have to remember that the process can be as important as the result. We in the Asian culture are known for being a culture of peace, and God has ingrained that in me, which gives me great joy–it’s the hardest thing I can imagine doing, and the most rewarding.
Last, Rabbi Levy. He just told a very funny story that I’ve missed due to connectivity problems–I’ll try to add it later.
The gist of the story is that Rabbi Yoffe of the Union for Reform Judaism was participating in an ecumenical service at a mainline Protestant church, where he was to give the opening line, “Peace be with you” (or words to that effect), to which the congregation traditionally replied “And with you”. When he reached the point where he was to speak, he approached the microphone, which was on a very high stand. He reached for it, got it, dropped it, and as he was trying to pick it up, thought it was not working, and said, “Something is wrong with this microphone,” which was working well enough to transmit his words to the congregation, which reflexively replied, “And with you.”
(Okay, so it was funnier when he told it.)
He notes that the word “amen” derives from a Hebrew word “ammenah” (I think), noting that I have a faith that something I am telling you is true. He notes that he and his fellow panelists have been talking about faith with a capital F, but that there’s also the more common dictionary definition of faith, faith in smaller things. For instance, the left turn arrow at the corner of Asher and University–one has faith that when that arrow is green, there are red lights stopping other cars which allows you to make your turn safely. How many of us tested the chairs in which we sat tonight? It’s faith based on a type of reasoning: I know that. . .thus I have faith in this.
You can’t argue faith. In 1979, we had both the Ayatollah Khomeni and the Moonies–imagine them arguing, both claiming each other were the devil. Those of other faiths on the sidelines saying, “No, they’re both the devil.” You can argue texts, you can argue history, but faith is way to personal to argue.
I do not like the term faith-based–I associate it with the White House. The day that a government wants to establish a faith-based office on its first day–I’ve been opposed to that term ever since. You can’t bribe people with money to deliver votes in a faith-based manner–when we have a discussion like this one here, that’s what I think of as faith-based.
Now, the Q&A period.
Mayo Johnson starts off: It’s been said that religious institutions are segregated. What do we do about this?
Rickey Hicks: It’s been said that Sunday morning is the most segregated time in America. I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. People have different beliefs, and should be able to gather with people who share those beliefs. The problem is when we begin to assign value to people based on their beliefs. There’s nothing about how we worship that keeps us from working together to solve social problems–crime in the community, educating children. The reality is, you will probably never see a day when we are all going to be under one big roof all worshipping together, not until we get to heaven.
Imam Hasan: There is nothing that divides us so much as assigning value to ones beliefs and ethnicities. Various isms form from that, from the belief that one group is better than another. Religion doesn’t teach that–culture teaches that. If you look at our basic beliefs, our consciousness is directed toward our creator. If you consider that God gives us our differences so that we can become educated about each other, then why should we fight about it? Devaluing one human being and accelerating the value of another so that one can oppress another is where nationalism and religion becomes a problem.
Dr. Li: A brain-teaser from their church (I’ll add it later: . Why should be assimilate into some goo? What we ask is for all to conform to the image of Christ. We have an image that all are asted to try to form into, retaining our distinctiveness and our personalities, but transformed spiritually in a way that is pleasing according to the scriptures.
Rabbi Levy: It’s okay to have our differences. For a Jew to come into a church and expect a faith experience, that’s just not going to happen. There can be an educational or an esthetic experience, yes, but there are different messages. Now, interfaith services such as those connected with the fiftieth anniversary, we don’t expect those to be a Muslim service, a Jewish service, that’s a different thing.
From the audience: About the power of the pulpit. How do we move people from the black and white of the issue to the wrong and right of the issue?
For Rabbi Levi, who says: Sometimes congregants say, “I don’t like when my rabbi talks politics.” That usually means they don’t agree with what I’ve said. I don’t think my temple is going to have any problem with the racial issue–one-third of the women on the Emergency Committe were Jewish. Equality has been a drive, a value among Jews, for some time.
Question: Please define an infidel?
For Imam Hasan, who answers: The infidel is the person who rejects all faith, who has no faith. It has nothing to do with the specifics of that person’s faith.
Question: I read literature on all religion, and find good and bad in all religion. We live in a diverse country, and a world in which people are intermingling in so many ways. At the fiftieth, there will be people of so many different beliefs, and I hope that my children will learn from all them. Will there be a time at the fiftieth when all the different faiths give their beliefs?
Imam Hasan: Yes, there will be an ecumenical service that weekend.
Mayo Johnson: Arkansas Globecoming has a listing of those activities.
Q: How can you utilize your faith for the common good of all, to make systemic change?
Rev. Hicks: We must attack social ills–our faith in God must lead us to a better position with each other. God instructs us to lift the downtrodden. It is not often talked about–you must understand that much of what is done at the grassroots is not often what is talked about in the Democrat-Gazette. So many of the best programs–anti-drug, literacy, and so on–are taking place in the churches and temples and mosques. There are many ecumenical activities going on all the time, but you don’t hear about them.
Chancellor Anderson in the audience asked the same question: I’ll ask a question of the panel–if you could get all the rabbis, pastors, imams, ministers, all of them to do one thing for racial cooperation during the fiftieth anniversary, what would you ask them to do? I personally came up in the final days of Jim Crow at Harding College, now University, where many of the faculty there came to believe that segregated teaching at that institution was wrong.
Dr. Li: I would encourage all the leaders to encourage their members to reach out across their barriers, to know someone who is completely different from themselves. It’s been our experience that one you get to know someone’s heart, the outside doesn’t matter.
Rev. Hicks: One thing, that has to be a continuous effort: We get together, we dialogue, and then we go home and life goes on. But–if all of us would get together, put in some money, and start a cultural diversity school, where all our children could come together, to study together, to play together, to begin to develop a sense of diversity. Our racism really sets in with us–children don’t see that, children just see another child to play with. I don’t think we need a color-blind society–you’ll see people’s color–but the color of their skin should have no more impact than the color of their eyes or the color of their hair.
Rabbi Levy: I’d to two things with the clergy: We’d all go see “Hairspray”, where it’s not just a racial thing, but a physical thing, with this stocky girl who can’t get a job dancing. Next, we’d all get together and we’d all bring our bibles, and we’d do Jim Wallis’ experiment where he and some friends took a bie and saw what was the most important topic–they took every reference to poverty and cut it out, and saw that the size of the bible was reduced by one-third. That is the most important topic in the bible. If we got that through to the ministers, I think that all these other programs would come flowing from that.
Imam Hasan: Who should you respect the most? Your mother, then your mother, then your mother, then your mother, then your father. I’d ask everyone to free the women, who have lost all consciousness of family in a society which is materialistic and has given a freedom of choice without any consideration of value. It’s a society in which women are seen as objects–men and women make these choices, not BET. Society has now come to the point where women are objects and not subjects. I would ask our ministers to get together and liberate our women from these social ills, allowing their bodies to be used for profit.
Q: Info about the interfaith celebrations, on the 23rd–Unity in the Community walking from Daisy Bates house to the Bullock Temple, then an interfaith service at Robinson Auditorium. (I’ll add the times later.)
Q: We have all monotheistic faiths represented on the panel. There are polytheists and atheists, and atheists who have exhibit that lower-case faith talked about earlier. Is there a way to have a conversation about faith without excluding those who don’t have that monotheistic set of beliefs?
Imam Hasan: We have a great challenge among us–most of us say, “This is my religion”, by which we mean the cultural context in which we live. To grow culturally, every culture has some form of religiosity. When we recognize that, and learn our common practices, we develop a more humane society.
And here was my question:
Rev. Hicks: It is a fundamental tenet of our faith that we must deal with social ills. There is our common ground, and you too play a role there as well. That is one of the most beautiful things about America, that no one has to believe any particular thing.
Q: Back to the original question about segregation in churches: As we embark on this so-called celebration, not everything about segregation was bad. So, if on Sunday morning, I have a right to go to the AME church–that’s separation, not segregation. Under segregation, we had no choice. Under current circumstances, we have a choice.
But now I want to get to my question: How can you and I seek peace when you and I believe different things? Will my faith keep me from finding that peace that I need to have?
Imam Hasan: I’m not going to let Rev. Hicks take that question–I like that question. God didn’t put a religion on us–he put humanity on us. If you’re born in Pakistan, you’re Pakistani; if you’re born in Ghana, you’re Ghanian. But Adam is from dust, and we are all from Adam. If you don’t believe in heaven, then you have a responsibility to find that peace; if you believe or do not believe, that’s an opportunity for you. It doesn’t make you a better person because you have Islam–if I have that choice on the Day of Judgement, and I haven’t lived up to it, then I have failed.
Rev. Hicks: If your faith keeps you from sitting down and being brothers and sisters with those who are different from you, then you need to sit down and look very carefully at your faith. You might not agree with everyone, but you can live peacefully with them. For instance, if you are interested in education, you will sit down with people who have different beliefs.
Q: I’ve been away from Little Rock for eight years–can the faith community actually celebrate? Has there been a coming together?
Dr. Li: I think this effort is a part of that coming together. I think there has been a lot of progress over the year.
Rabbi Levy: The term judging is a very important term–we tend to judge people based on whether they believe the same things we do. One lady said, “I’m here because I’m sick of my grandfather judging my friends. Every Sunday after church, he says, ‘He’s gonna burn. She’s gonna burn.’ ” We have to get away from judging people on their beliefs.
Q: How are we going to elect politicians such as Barack Obama or Mitt Romney who attend racially polarized churches?
Rev. Hicks: I don’t go to the polls and look for a spiritual leader, though I would hope they have some beliefs. I am looking for someone who has a direction in which I hope America can go. I knew very little about the Mormons until I went to law school and got to know a Mormon and his beliefs–Mitt Romney’s beliefs don’t bother me.
Imam Hasan: The issue is integrity, morality, common sense–we have a dumb president right now. We need a president with common sense. Communication, the ability to relate–those are things we need. The JFK was a Catholic doesn’t matter. The idea that someone’s religious beliefs are important in that way is ludicrous. When someone believes that God speaks to them–I have a problem with that.
Q: The goal of the forums has been to bring unity to the community. Statistics show that twenty percent of the population attend religious services. What in our practice to you think has caused that other eighty percent?
Dr. Li: Our job is to model things which will allow people to come closer to God.
Q: We can call it segregation or separation, but my middle school students don’t see the difference–they’ve gone to an all-white or an all-black church, or a church like this, and when they’ve seen people in that context, they think people like themselves are the important people. I’d like to challenge people to reach out to people unlike themselves. How we get along socially–that has nothing to do with religion. What is forced, students don’t understand that. They see it as the way it ought to be–how their parents, their grandparent do things. That separation is forced on the students–what their parents do is forced, and that’s taught to them.
Rabbi Levy: I would agree to a certain extent, but you’ve got to remember that church is one hour a week, while public school is forty hours a week. I’ve been an ardent opponent of private schooling for that reason.
Q: But if the most important time–if you’ve taught your children that religion and family come first, and they see religion as separated, voluntarily or not–then in the cafeteria they separate.
Dr. Li: Ninety-seven percent of the churches in America would be considered segregated or homogeneous. There may be nothing wrong with that, but I can tell you there is a blessing that comes from worshipping with people not like yourself–I’m not saying it’s better, but that there’s something special that happens when you do that.
Mark DeYraz: The observation about eleven am on Sunday being the most segregated hour in America appears to go back to the late 1800’s.
Q: Traveling around the country, I notice that Islam has done more for the black man than any other, and I think that black men who are studying just Christianity should look into that. Islam is teaching culture, and getting black men back in touch with their culture and their roots.
Imam Hasan: I think that our common humanity comes from developing our intellect, when we allow the best of ourselves and our sincerity. That intellect allows us to distinguish between right and wrong. Education becomes a tool to develop our common sense–sometimes I don’t think education develops common sense.
Annnouncements: Thanks for Philander Smith, the Clinton School, and the Mosaic Church. Also thanks to Chancellor Anderson. A brief plug for WorldFest–I’ll add a link to it in a bit.
